Iraq Unfolding

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Postby Eugene Berkovich on 14 Dec 2004, 11:52

Leonid wrote:Clearly, the idea that Hitler was a Rightist is probably the most successful BIG LIE of the 20th Century. He was to the Right of the Communists but that is all. Nazism was nothing more nor less than a racist form of Leftism (rather extreme Leftism at that) and to label it as "Rightist" or anything else is to deny reality.

Also, this work by Ludwig von Mises remains as priceless as ever:

Omnipotent Government: The Rise of the Total State and Total War.

http://www.mises.org/etexts/og.pdf


Who do we call the biggest enemy of leftists? Exactly, a RIGHTIST.

That he is not an ultra righ-winger is laughable!
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Postby Eugene Berkovich on 14 Dec 2004, 11:55

Leonid wrote:Clearly, the idea that Hitler was a Rightist is probably the most successful BIG LIE of the 20th Century. He was to the Right of the Communists but that is all. Nazism was nothing more nor less than a racist form of Leftism (rather extreme Leftism at that) and to label it as "Rightist" or anything else is to deny reality.


http://www.mises.org/etexts/og.pdf


You are the one denying reality. Hitler's policy smack of corporate capitalism, slavery (individual freedoms, anyone?), racism, and militant anti-communism.

It is ABSOLUTELY AND UNDENIABLY RIGHT-WING in nature!
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Postby Eugene Berkovich on 14 Dec 2004, 11:59

Marko wrote:
Eugene Berkovich wrote:

Hitler had draconian policies in place to deal with those of non-Arian origin. And, what's funny, Leonid knows that.


Eugene, that's a self-evident truth if ever there was one. I don't think anyone would disagree about those policies of Hitler's.

Eugene Berkovich wrote: Now, Lefties support personal freedoms, such as freedom from against persecution (look at rightwing's tacit approval of the Patrtiot Act), freedom of woman's reproductive choice (who is against it, you may as well see for yourself), freedom from sexual and racial discrimination (ditto, just look the horror in Leonid's words when the population of a country or a state is about to change ethnically - even if it is not for a while)


I vehemently disagree with the Patriot Act. I believe I mentioned a similar Act that had been passed through our very own Parliament a few weeks ago over on WF. I deplore policies which, while masquerading as protection from terrorism, impinge on our personal freedoms more than any outside influence could ever dream of doing.

Oh, and I support the right to choose for women AND I support gay rights, including marriage. I wouldn't really consider myself left-wing, either.


marko, you may not be noticing it, but your statements right above tell me of your liberalism. The difference between me and you is that I am proud of being a Liberal and will shout it on any corner. You seem be afraid of doing so.
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Postby Felix K on 14 Dec 2004, 12:31

Eugene,

perhaps in the US, there are just liberals and conservatives and nothing else. But in Europe, things are not so simple. Most Euroean liberals would feel insulted when labeled as "lefties" , and vice versa.
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Leo

Postby mate on 14 Dec 2004, 12:41

I attended the annual AIPAC dinner in Silicon Valley for the 3rd year in a row this past Sunday, with my friend Martin whom you know from Rachelle’s message board. I have to say that I was a bit disturbed at the overall tone of the evening, especially given the comments of Senator Jack Reed from RI. Given that the man is Catholic, a West Pointer, Airborne Ranger, Kennedy School, and Harvard law school graduate, you can imagine how excited I was to hear him speak.

Well, unlike the previous 2 year’s speakers, Senators Bayh and Collins, also coincidentally Catholic, Senator Reed used the opportunity to take pot shots at George Bush and the Republicans and to warn Israel not to use force against Iran. Unlike Bayh and Collins, who both related warm, ad-libbed, personal stories about the Jewish situation in the world, he was very monotone, indifferent, a classic northeastern democrat. With every sentence I grew more disappointed, as he contradicted himself in explaining that while Iran was not to be trusted with nuclear materials, the US should only use diplomacy, as we were militarily tied down in a misadventure in Iraq. He was very blunt in insisting that Israel had to reengage the peace process, using words that seemed to put the burden of proving good will upon Israel.

Some caught the partisan jab and how it actually undermined the Israeli position. I was astonished that AIPAC leadership did not prescreen this Senator Reed. Anyways, I lingered a bit and asked questions, receiving some silly, really embarrassing retorts, about presenting the range of the political spectrum in order to exemplify the non-partisan character of AIPAC. I expressed my doubts that the majority of people would be so appreciative or discerning regarding Senator Reed’s viewpoints. Hell, if diversity is the goal, I am sure PLO representatives would be happy to present their point of view.

:)

Fortunately, the AIPAC chairman offered a crystal clear frame of reference about the current middle-east equation at the beginning of the event. The US and Israel want the Palestinians to form a democratic government with which to conduct meaningful dialogue and policy agreements. European and Muslim nations want meaningful dialogue and policy agreements now, no matter what the state of affairs regarding Palestinian leadership. Obviously, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see the inherent logical fallacies in the latter position.

All in all, the apprehension was palpable and frustrating, grim really. Israel is increasingly assailed on political and economic fronts while an Anglo-American alliance fights Islamic radicalism and continental European obstructionism, making it difficult for the latter to assist the former. And, as I said, it didn’t help that Senator Reed chose to put the lion’s share of the blame on Bush and the Republicans.

Cheers, Mate
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Barry...

Postby mate on 14 Dec 2004, 13:01

Again, I explained my position quite clearly, differentiating legitimate constructive criticism versus undermining one's country through partisan distortion and how this all relates to the freedom of speech. There is a difference between the former and the latter and I will never hesitate to use my freedom of speech in reminding you of such. Can you comprehend that? I am not suppressing your right to free speech...I am merely exercising it to expose the logical fallacies and extreme partisanship inherent in you exercising your freedom of speech to bash Bush and the US.

Like I said at World Politics, projecting propaganda depicting Bush as Hitler and the US as an imperial minded power descending into authoritarianism absolutely has an impact when delivered en-mass. Obviously, such anti-Americanism, a sort of a quasi- academic , even religious, discipline, finds significant numbers of adherants.

You yourself have been most vocal and expressive in condemning Bush and the neocons while essentially apologizing for the malevolence of the terrorists whom we are fighting. How many times have you and Matt embraced Klatu-like loon asylum conspiracy theories that reinforce the notion of American imperial aggrandizement? Do you realize the impact of putting the burden of proof on the US and the Bush administration to prove good intent, every step of the way, while casually dismissing that Islamic terrorism is a proven transnational threat enjoying varying degrees of support from Islamic states and societies? Do you see how this has become a cottage industry that stokes all manners of malevolent conspiracy theories?

When a good number of people across western societies espouse and project such viewpoints, yes Virginia, it indeed has a negative impact. Instead of the West presenting a united front, countries like France and Germany execute obstructionist tactics that tacitly support the terrorists. Arab intellectuals seize points of distortion to justify and urge on the radicals. Hell, people here in the San Francisco <i>rallied</i> not too long ago to <i>protest</i> the <i>invasion</i> of Fallujah.

It's just freedom of speech, eh Barry? Sorry, but I take umbrage to such condemnations of my country, the men who fight in our name, and their cause. Having recently spoken to some military personnel, I am damn sure about what for and why we are fighting, as opposed to our opponents. I know where I stand. I will keep faith and hope as long as they do, the men on the ground.

I am on the side of democracy. You on the other hand say your are, but yet express yourself in a way that undermines those men fighting and dying for democracy, all under the pretext of exercising your democratic rights. Brilliant. We need more contrarians like you defending the interests of democracy. Would that there were more of you around in WWII to dispute and contest the US invading Asia in response to Pearl Harbor! You would have clearly seen that Pearl Harbor was a conspiratorial ruse, justifying a US plot to dominate Asia.

:D :D :D

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Postby Blazes Boylan on 14 Dec 2004, 20:16

Instead of the West presenting a united front, countries like France and Germany execute obstructionist tactics that tacitly support the terrorists


Mate,

You haven't yet explained why any country which disagrees with the US invasion of Iraq is under any obligation to unite with it to present any sort of front. Are they supposed to pretend they don't have different views? If a united front is required perhaps the US should listen to the other Western countries instead of expecting them to toe the US line without question.

You see, Mate, no matter how much the US would like the rest of the world to fall into line and accept its leadership things don't work that way. The US does not rule the world, it doesn't even rule other Western democracies. Each country is free to follow its own course of action. The US can try to bully or cajole other countries into submitting to its leadership, but we are quite at liberty to reject those advances.

Both France and Germany have been and are involved in the war on terror and have both arrested a large number of suspected terrorists. What they are not involved in is the war in Iraq. And no matter how often you try to spin it, the war in Iraq is not the same as the war on terror.
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Postby RedFury on 15 Dec 2004, 14:12

Ah, but haven',t you heard? Surely the US's well established 'benevolence' and 'moral superiority' trump any claims about it ignoring the democratic right of dissent -- whether it come from individuals and/or nations, they must be wrong as stated above, on principle, reputation and history alone. Thus it is up to the rest of us to get in line. For it's do as their country says. Right or wrong doesn't enter into the equation.. Because, again, as has been amply demonstrated they couldn't possibly be wrong...

Never mind other pesky, contrary things such as oh, I don't know...facts for instance? So there it is. The benefits of living in Faith-based reality: you get to make your own as you go along.

Or so I am told.

Meantime, smart people such as yourself refuse to allow them to frame the debate -- the whole TWAT thing. What to do, what to do? Why demonize, of course. What did you expect? An actual cogent counter-argument? Bzzzt. I've searched long and hard for one. Coming up on three years as a matter of fact and I've yet to find one. Nevertheless, let me know how your own search is going.

BTW, glad to see you've found your way over, Blazes. Welcome aboard.
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Why how dare they defend their country like that?!

Postby RedFury on 15 Dec 2004, 14:32

Iraqi resistance grows at a fierce pace

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A suicide car bomber on Monday morning ripped into a checkpoint outside of the U.S. stronghold in Baghdad, home of Iraq's interim government and the U.S. Embassy. At least nine Iraqis were killed and 22 were injured.

Witnesses said the blast came so suddenly that they didn't know what sort of car was involved - only that it left bodies and blood spread across the ground.

Jordanian terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi reportedly took responsibility. Officials at the two hospitals that received the dead and wounded said nine Iraqis were killed, though the number might have been higher because family members might have taken remains away.

A second car bomb hit a convoy of Humvees in northern Baghdad on Monday morning, wounding three soldiers and an Iraqi.

The insurgency in Iraq - which includes nationalists, foreign fighters and Saddam Hussein loyalists - is still ferocious. Fighting continues even in areas where the U.S. military has launched large-scale operations.

On Sunday, seven Marines were killed in two separate incidents in the al-Anbar region, which includes the restive towns of Fallujah and Ramadi.

Firefights and U.S. air strikes have continued in Fallujah since a Marine-Army operation recaptured the town in November. Since the beginning of December, at least 15 troops have been killed in the province.

<snip>

In Baghdad, Kifah Khudhair, a 41-year-old Iraqi woman, lay in a hospital bed after Monday's car bombing. She and her brother-in-law were driving to do some shopping when they were sideswiped by the blast. A dark gray blanket covered her legs.

"After the explosion happened I lost consciousness. When I woke up I found myself in the hospital with a bullet hole through both of my legs," she said. "There were no Americans there, so I assume the Iraqi police shot me when they began firing randomly."

Her 20-year-old son, Abbas Hussein, was standing at the side of Khudhair's bed. His eyes raced from the floor to his mother. Although Zarqawi took credit for the car bomb, Hussein's rage was directed at the Americans.

"What can we do? These things happen every day, like looting and murder," he said, his voice rising. "I am angry at the Americans because it is all their fault. This is all because of them."
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Postby RedFury on 15 Dec 2004, 14:59

A follow-up to yet another reality-based and thus ignored post of mine from WX:

Turns out that not only was that particular e-mail real, but that it's been an on-going practice to hire a bunch of inexperinced youngsters with Republicans ties to key possitions in the reconstruction of Iraq. In the futile hope that perhaps someone from the Faith-based community will bother reading the article in order to gain a further undernstanding of why the situation is so dire in Iraq, here's a bit of an extract:

In Iraq, the Job Opportunity of a Lifetime

Managing a $13 Billion Budget With No Experience.

BAGHDAD -- It was after nightfall when they finally found their offices at Saddam Hussein's Republican Palace -- 11 jet-lagged, sweaty, idealistic volunteers who had come to help Iraq along the road to democracy.

hen the U.S. government went looking for people to help rebuild Iraq, they had responded to the call. They supported the war effort and President Bush. Many had strong Republican credentials. They were in their twenties or early thirties and had no foreign service experience. On that first day, Oct. 1, they knew so little about how things worked that they waited hours at the airport for a ride that was never coming. They finally discovered the shuttle bus out of the airport but got off at the wrong stop.

<snip>

When Ledeen's group showed up at the palace -- with their North Face camping gear, Abercrombie & Fitch camouflage and digital cameras -- they were quite the spectacle. For some, they represented everything that was right with the CPA: They were young, energetic and idealistic. For others, they represented everything that was wrong with the CPA: They were young, inexperienced, and regarded as ideologues.

Several had impressive paper credentials, but in the wrong fields. Greco was fluent in English, Italian and Spanish; Burns had been a policy analyst focused on family and health care; and Ledeen had co-founded a cooking school. But none had ever worked in the Middle East, none spoke Arabic, and few could tell a balance sheet from an accounts receivable statement.

Other staffers quickly nicknamed the newcomers "The Brat Pack."

"They had come over because of one reason or another, and they were put in positions of authority that they had no clue about," remembered Army Reserve Sgt. Thomas D. Wirges, 38, who had been working on rehabilitating the Baghdad Stock Exchange.

Some also grumbled about the new staffers' political ties. Retired U.S. Army Col. Charles Krohn said many in the CPA regard the occupation "as a political event," always looking for a way to make the president look good.


Much more at source.
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Postby Eugene Berkovich on 15 Dec 2004, 16:12

Mate

Like I said at World Politics, projecting propaganda depicting Bush as Hitler and the US as an imperial minded power descending into authoritarianism absolutely has an impact when delivered en-mass. Obviously, such anti-Americanism, a sort of a quasi- academic , even religious, discipline, finds significant numbers of adherants.


I do not see any anti-Americanism in labeling Bush a Hitler. I do not agree with such labeling, but I would also disagree with you labeling such a comparison anti-American.

Labeling US state mechanisms and democratic pilars of this society fascist would be Anti-American. Labeling any one person such, would, at the most, be "anti-this-person". Labeling any policy imperialistic would also not be "anti-American".


What is anti-America is your suggestion that criticism is anti-American.
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Postby Sulla on 15 Dec 2004, 23:23

Leo,

As a point of conversation, Mises once stated that even Friedrich Hayek was a socialist. Given Hayek's economic theories, most would probably be inclined to say that Mises' claim is ludicrous. However even Hayek acknowledged a degree of empathy with socialism.

My point being; much like you yourself seem to illustrate in terms of the debate over where Nazi's fit on the political spectrum, it's often fairly difficult to pin point whether a particular phenomena belongs to the left or the right. Only the general press seems to find clarity in such distinctions, and for the most part, they're idiots.
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Postby Leonid on 15 Dec 2004, 23:41

Sulla

Can you recall any famous economist or politician being right 100% of the time? Ditto for Ludwig von Mises. Just because his characterization of one man was wrong doesn't mean he was wrong about another man.

Let me give you another historical example. Notorious Sen. McCarthy once called Harry Truman and Dean Acheson "Moscow agents". Although his record of uncovering real Moscow agents in the United States was quite extensive, that particular remark was absolutely idiotic.

That's not the point though. The point is that it's foolish to apply (and transfer back in time) modern political terminology (so beloved by the American Left) of one particular country to another, 70 years ago.

It just doesn't fit there. The most ridiculous thing to do, as Eugene is fond of doing, is his insistense on drawing parallels between Nazis and modern American conservatives.

One cannot even take it as a slander, so preposterous the comparison is.
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Postby Sulla on 16 Dec 2004, 00:32

Leonid wrote:
Can you recall any famous economist or politician being right 100% of the time? Ditto for Ludwig von Mises. Just because his characterization of one man was wrong doesn't mean he was wrong about another man.


I'm definately not taking a shot at the man. Although I only know a fraction about him, I know enough to appreciate his worth. Instead my point was something else.

Leonid wrote:That's not the point though. The point is that it's foolish to apply (and transfer back in time) modern political terminology of one particular country to another, 70 years ago.


That was my point. :idea:
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Postby Felix K on 16 Dec 2004, 05:28

That's not the point though. The point is that it's foolish to apply (and transfer back in time) modern political terminology (so beloved by the American Left) of one particular country to another, 70 years ago.


Political correctness knows no (time) boundaries.Image
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Postby RedFury on 17 Dec 2004, 14:47

Interesting article:

Reality Catching Up to Empire?

Many of the signs and portents hovering around the beginning of a second Bush term look less than promising for partisans of peace. As cabinet members have resigned, they have for the most part been replaced by people whose salient qualities are less competence or expertise than personal loyalty to the president, several of them White House staffers with little discernible executive experience. Most of the architects of what even many partisans of the war are coming to view as at least a setback if not an outright disaster in Iraq – Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Feith, Rice, and others – have been kept on or rewarded with higher positions.

<snip>

Perhaps the most significant signal that erring grievously – so long as the mistakes were made in pursuit of a presidential enthusiasm – will not only not be punished in this administration but rewarded, was the decision to give the previously prestigious Medal of Freedom to three of the more notable screw-ups in the administration. Let Andrew Sullivan, an enthusiastic supporter of the war until the problems of the postwar and the administration habit of denial of any less-than-rosy development made him grumpy, tell it: "The presidential medal of freedom goes to George 'Slam Dunk' Tenet, Tommy 'We Have Enough Troops' Franks, and Paul 'Disband the Iraqi Army' Bremer. It's one thing never to punish error, but to reward it so magnificently!"


Much more at source...
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Postby Eugene Berkovich on 17 Dec 2004, 17:59

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FL18Ak04.html
The failed US face of Fallujah
By Michael Schwartz

The chilling reality of what Fallujah has become is only now seeping out, as the US military continues to block almost all access to the city, whether to reporters, its former residents, or aid groups such as the Red Crescent Society. The date of access keeps being postponed, partly because of ongoing fighting - only this week more air strikes were called in and fighting "in pockets" remains fierce (despite US pronouncements of success weeks ago) - and partly because of the difficulties military commanders have faced in attempting to prettify their ugly handiwork. Residents will now officially be denied entry until at least December 24; and even then, only the heads of households will be allowed in, a few at a time, to assess damage to their residences in the largely destroyed city.

With a few notable exceptions, the media have accepted the recent virtual news blackout in Fallujah. The ongoing fighting in the city, especially in "cleared" neighborhoods, is proving an embarrassment and so, while military spokesmen continue to announce American casualties, they now come not from the city itself but, far more vaguely, from "al-Anbar province", of which the city is a part. Fifty American soldiers died in the taking of the city; 20 more died in the following weeks - before the reports stopped. Iraqi civilian casualties remain unknown and accounts of what's happened in the city, except from the point of view of embedded reporters (and so of US troops) remain scarce. With only a few exceptions (notably Anthony Shadid of the Washington Post), American reporters have neglected to cull news from refugee camps or Baghdad hospitals, where survivors of the siege are now congregating.

Intrepid independent and foreign reporters are doing a better job (most notably Dahr Jamail, whose dispatches are indispensable), but even they have been handicapped by lack of access to the city itself. At least Jamail did the next best thing, interviewing a Red Crescent worker who was among the handful of non-governmental organization personnel allowed briefly into the wreckage that was Fallujah.

A report by Katarina Kratovac of the Associated Press (picked up by the Washington Post) about military plans for managing Fallujah once it is pacified (if it ever is) proved a notable exception to the arid coverage in the major media. Kratovac based her piece on briefings by the military leadership, notably Lieutenant-General John F Sattler, commander of the Marines in Iraq. By combining her evidence with some resourceful reporting by Dahr Jamail (and bits and pieces of information from reports printed up elsewhere), a reasonably sharp vision of the conditions the US is planning for Fallujah's "liberated" residents comes into focus. When they are finally allowed to return, if all goes as the Americans imagine, here's what the city's residents may face:


Entry to and exit from the city will be restricted. According to Sattler, only five roads into the city will remain open. The rest will be blocked by "sand berms" - read mountains of earth that will make them impassible. Checkpoints will be established at each of the five entry points, manned by US troops, and everyone entering will be "photographed, fingerprinted and have iris scans taken before being issued ID cards". Though Sattler reassured American reporters that the process would only take 10 minutes, the implication is that entry to and exit from the city will depend solely on valid identification cards properly proffered, a system akin to the pass-card system used during the apartheid era in South Africa.

Fallujans are to wear their universal identity cards in plain sight at all times. The ID cards will, according to Dahr Jamail's information, be made into badges that contain the individual's home address. This sort of system has no purpose except to allow for the monitoring of everyone in the city, so that ongoing US patrols can quickly determine whether someone is not a registered citizen or is suspiciously far from their home neighborhood.

No private automobiles will be allowed inside the city. This is a "precaution against car bombs", which Sattler called "the deadliest weapons in the insurgent arsenal". As a district is opened to repopulation, the returning residents will be forced to park their cars outside the city and will be bused to their homes. How they will get around afterward has not been announced. How they will transport reconstruction materials to rebuild their devastated property is also a mystery.

Only those Fallujans cleared through US intelligence vettings will be allowed to work on the reconstruction of the city. Since Fallujah is currently devastated and almost all employment will, at least temporarily, derive from whatever reconstruction aid the US provides, this means that the Americans plan to retain a life-and-death grip on the city. Only those deemed by them to be non-insurgents (based on notoriously faulty US intelligence) will be able to support themselves or their families.

Those engaged in reconstruction work - that is, those who are working at all - in the city may be organized into "work brigades". The best information indicates that these will be military-style battalions commanded by the US or Iraqi armed forces. Here, as in other parts of the plan, the motive is clearly to maintain strict surveillance over males of military age, all of whom will be considered potential insurgents.

In case the overarching meaning of all this has eluded you, Major Francis Piccoli, a spokesman for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, which is leading the occupation of Fallujah, spelled it out for Kratovac: "Some may see this as a 'Big Brother is watching over you' experiment, but in reality it's a simply security measure to keep the insurgents from coming back." Actually, it is undoubtedly meant to be both; and since, in the end, it is likely to fail (at least, if the "success" of other US plans in Iraq is taken as precedent), it may prove less revealing of Fallujah's actual future than of the failure of the US counterinsurgency effort in Iraq and of the desperation of American strategists.

In this context, the most revealing element of the plan may be the banning of all cars, the enforcement of which, all by itself, would make the city unlivable; and which therefore demonstrates both the impracticality of the US vision and a callous disregard for the needs and rights of the Fallujans.

These dystopian plans are a direct consequence of the fact that the conquest of Fallujah, despite the destruction of the city, visibly did not accomplish its primary goal - "to wipe out militants and insurgents and break the back of guerrillas in Fallujah". Even taking American kill figures at face value, the battle for the city was hardly a full-scale success. Before the assault on the city began, US intelligence estimated that there were 5,000 insurgents inside. Sattler himself conceded that the final official count was 1,200 fighters killed and no more than 2,000 suspected guerrillas captured. (This assumes, of course, that it was possible in the heat of the battle and its grim aftermath to tell whether any dead man of fighting age was an "insurgent", a "suspected insurgent", or just a dead civilian.) At least a couple of thousand resistance fighters previously residing in Fallujah are, then, still "at large" - not counting the undoubtedly sizable number of displaced residents now angry enough to take up arms. As a consequence, were the US to allow the outraged residents of Fallujah to return unmolested, they would simply face a new struggle in the ruins of the city (as, in fact, continues to be the case anyway). This would leave the extensive devastation of whole neighborhoods as the sole legacy of the invasion.

US desperation is expressed in a willingness to treat all Fallujans as part of the insurgency - the inevitable fate of an occupying army that tries to "root out" a popular resistance. As Sattler explained, speaking of the plan for the "repopulation" of the city, "Once we've cleared each and every house in a sector, then the Iraqi government will make the notification of residents of that particular sector that they are encouraged to return." In other words, each section of the city must be entirely emptied of life, so that the military can be sure not even one suspect insurgent has infiltrated the new order. (As is evident, this is but another US occupation fantasy, since the insurgents still hiding in the city have evidently proven all too adept at "repopulating" emptied neighborhoods themselves.)

The ongoing policy of house-to-house inspections, combined with ultra-tight security regulations aimed at not allowing suspected guerrillas to re-enter the city, is supposed to ensure that everyone inside the Fallujan perimeter will not only be disarmed but obedient to occupation demands and desires. The name tags and the high-tech identity cards are meant to guard against both forgeries and unlawful movement within the city. The military-style work gangs are to ensure that everyone is under close supervision at all times. The restricted entry points are clearly meant to keep all weapons out. Assumedly kept out as well will be most or all reporters (they tend to inflame public opinion), most medical personnel (they tend to "exaggerate" civilian casualties), and most Sunni clerics (they oppose the occupation and support the insurgency). We can also expect close scrutiny of computers (which can be used for nefarious communications), ambulances (which have been used to smuggle weapons and guerrillas), medicines (which can be used to patch up wounded fighters who might still be hiding somewhere), and so on.

It is not much of a reach to see that, at least in their fantasies, US planners would like to set up what sociologists call a "total institution". Like a mental hospital or a prison, Fallujah, at least as reimagined by the Americans, will be a place where constant surveillance equals daily life and the capacity to interdict "suspicious" behavior (however defined) is the norm. But "total institution" might be too sanitized a term to describe activities that so clearly violate international law as well as fundamental morality. Those looking for a descriptor with more emotional bite might consider one of those used by correspondent Pepe Escobar of Asia Times Online: either "American gulag" for those who enjoy Stalinist imagery or "concentration camp" for those who prefer the Nazi version of the same. But maybe we should just call it a plain old police (city-)state.

Where will such plans lead? Well, for one thing, we can confidently predict that nothing we might recognize as an election will take place in Fallujah at the end of January. (Remember, it was to liberate Fallujans from the grip of "terrorists" and to pave the way for electoral free choice that the administration of US President George W Bush claimed it was taking the city in the first place.) With the current date for allowing the first residents to return set for December 24 - heads of household only to assess property damage - and the process of repopulation supposedly moving step by step, from north to south, across neighborhoods and over time, it's almost inconceivable that a majority of Fallujans will have returned by late January (if they are even willing to return under the conditions set by the Americans). Latest reports are that it will take six months to a year simply to restore electricity to the city. So organizing elections seems unlikely indeed.

The magnitude of the devastation and the brutality of the US plan are what's likely to occupy the full attention of Fallujans for the foreseeable future - and their reactions to these dual disasters represent the biggest question mark of the moment. However, the history of the Iraq war thus far, and the history of guerrilla wars in general, suggest that there will simply be a new round of struggle, and that carefully laid military plans will begin to disintegrate with the very first arrivals. There is no predicting what form the new struggle will take, but the US military is going to have a great deal of difficulty controlling a large number of rebellious, angry people inside the gates of America's new mini-police state. This is why the military command has kept almost all of the original attack force in the city, in anticipation of the need for tight patrols by a multitude of US troops. And it also explains why so many other locations around the country have suddenly found themselves without a US troop presence.

The Fallujah police-state strategy represents a sign of weakness, not strength. The new Fallujah imagined by American planners is a desperate, ad hoc response to the failure of the battle to "break the back of the guerrillas". Like the initial attack on the city, it, too, is doomed to failure, though it has the perverse "promise" of deepening the suffering of the Iraqis.

Michael Schwartz, professor of sociology at the State University of New York at Stony Brook, has written extensively on popular protest and insurgency, and on US business and government dynamics. His work on Iraq has appeared at TomDispatch, Asia Times Online and ZNet and in Contexts and Z Magazine. His books include Radical Politics and Social Structure, The Power Structure of American Business (with Beth Mintz), and Social Policy and the Conservative Agenda (edited, with Clarence Lo) . His e-mail address is Ms42@optonline.net.
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Re: Barry...

Postby barry schwarz on 17 Dec 2004, 22:57

mate wrote:Again, I explained my position quite clearly, differentiating legitimate constructive criticism versus undermining one's country through partisan distortion and how this all relates to the freedom of speech.


Your POV is that criticism is legitimate as long as it doesn't undermine one's countries efforts. what, then, if one considers one's countries efforts misguided? And I am not criticising the US, just the Bush administration. I haven't for example maligned the US public over the re-election of Bush. It is convenient for you to dismiss my POV as partisan, just as you question the validity of the participation of the Senator who disappointed you at the conference you attended. You don't want to hear 'a range of views', just those that tailor themselves to be in-line with a national objective enunciated by the Bush administration. Your own POV is based on a faith in the US generally. What is objective about that?

mate wrote:I am not suppressing your right to free speech...I am merely exercising it to expose the logical fallacies and extreme partisanship inherent in you exercising your freedom of speech to bash Bush and the US.


You are doing more than that. As well as legitimate criticism of oppositional views, you are positing that the airing of such views is illegitimate - based on your supreme confidence of the rightness and moral soundness of US foreign policies, the opposition to which you criticise as 'partisanship'. This is arrogant arguing. The question is, 'is US foreign policy regarding the ME right?' Your stance is that it is, period. Any contradiction is 'undermining'.

mate wrote:Like I said at World Politics, projecting propaganda depicting Bush as Hitler and the US as an imperial minded power descending into authoritarianism absolutely has an impact when delivered en-mass.


I do not depict Bush as Hitler, nor the US as an imperial-minded power (See my post in 'War on Terror' -> 'Dissent' thread on this),

http://www.phpbbserver.com/phpbb/viewto ... orldforums

although I protest against the authoritarian decision to wage war in Iraq, and have lamented the erosion of civil rights from the Patriot Act etc. Your characterization of my POV is misplaced and reveals your own partisanship.

mate wrote:You yourself have been most vocal and expressive in condemning Bush and the neocons


I don't condemn Bush, per se, although I think we are agreed he is no intellectual or strategic giant. My discussion has been about policy and motivating factors. I have, at length, presented substantiation along with prediction. I tend to think you roll all oppositional views into one big ball to be treated with contempt when you address me.

mate wrote:while essentially apologizing for the malevolence of the terrorists whom we are fighting.


You have yet to establish how this is so aside from a simple 'with us or agin us' paradigm, which is beneath your intellectual capability.

mate wrote:How many times have you and Matt embraced Klatu-like loon asylum conspiracy theories that reinforce the notion of American imperial aggrandizement?


klatu speaks for himself, and not for me - and vice versa. What I have actually done is shown that the agenda for war on Iraq was a serious and open imperative for many of the 'neoconservatives' in the Bush administration well before 9/11. It's not a conspiracy theory, as there was no secrecy on the part of the actors named heretofore. Their putsch was in the public domain by the late 90s.

mate wrote:Do you realize the impact of putting the burden of proof on the US and the Bush administration to prove good intent, every step of the way, while casually dismissing that Islamic terrorism is a proven transnational threat enjoying varying degrees of support from Islamic states and societies? Do you see how this has become a cottage industry that stokes all manners of malevolent conspiracy theories?


So, what, I should silence my criticism because wackos derive succour from it?

I have never dismissed that Islamic terrorism is a threat, not that it enjoys support across the ME - I have only challenged the potency of that threat and manner in which it is dealt with. In fact, I have recommended that better strategies be employed to isolate Islamic militants from their support base. Again, we disagree on methodology.

mate wrote:When a good number of people across western societies espouse and project such viewpoints, yes Virginia, it indeed has a negative impact. Instead of the West presenting a united front, countries like France and Germany execute obstructionist tactics that tacitly support the terrorists. Arab intellectuals seize points of distortion to justify and urge on the radicals. Hell, people here in the San Francisco <i>rallied</i> not too long ago to <i>protest</i> the <i>invasion</i> of Fallujah.


You have reached your verdict. The invasion of Iraq, the attack on Fallujah is absolutely correct, and any further criticism is just undermining partisanship. Once, you used to engage in debate on the matter. You accept that 'mistakes have been made', but probably you have been pushed too far, and now must hold fast to the small island of supposed legitimacy named "The Democratisation of the Middle East". Here you make your stand. You've drawn a line in the discussion. Iraq's WMD and relationship to international terrorism we can mull over - the rightness of US policy on the ME; never!

And so countries - the majority of them - excercising their preference contrary to the US agenda are 'selfish', and tiny actors like ourselves, whose influence s limited to chat boards, by and large, are 'compromising the effort'.

mate wrote:Sorry, but I take umbrage to condemnation of... the men who fight in our name, and their cause.


You are speaking to a monolithic interlocutor, Mate, for I never condemned soldiers, although I have criticised tactics in Iraq. And it is disingenous - and a little revealing - that you make my criticism of Bush's policies synonymous with criticism of the armies objectives in Iraq. Bush may be your commander in chief, but he is not mine, nor do I think he, or Rumsfeld for that matter, is fit to head the mightiest military the world has known. I condemn the unnecessary war option because it brutalizes civilian and soldier alike - I do not blame soldiers for that brutalization.

mate wrote:I am on the side of democracy. You on the other hand say your are, but yet express yourself in a way that undermines those men fighting and dying for democracy, all under the pretext of exercising your democratic rights.


This is sad. You've become more strident, more militant.

There is no 'pretext'. Would you contend that anytime a government goes to war, criticism of the war is illegitimate? Or is it just this war? Or just the US government? Should we also condemn those Shi'ite Iraqis who may have muttered subversive argument against Hussein when he attacked Iran in the late eighties?

And if my criticism undermines the possibility of further wars for flawed reasons in the ME, then I'll be damned proud of myself. Don't you think that the welter of public dissent might be justified? This 'huge groundswell' may not be based on fallacious thinking or partisanship after all.

Mate, I do not criticise to endanger soldiers or civilians, or to satisfy an emotional loathing for Bush or war. I reason that war on Iraq was a huge mistake. Until such time as you accept that this is so, or you make an argument that changes my mind, I will continue to debate you on the matter, and I will not resort to making you a villain because 'you and your kind support the warmongers' or any such nonsense. I will not accept your silly contention that I approve of terrorists just because I don't devote much effort writing to condemn them, or that I condone them because I criticise US foreign policy. This is so far beneath your abilities that I despair of what's become of you, and the future of our conversation. Others have condemned you for being a simple, if articulate, cheerleader for the US. I have not thought thus of you, but the character of your growing impatience with dissent is troubling.

[quote="mate"]You would have clearly seen that Pearl Harbor was a conspiratorial ruse, justifying a US plot to dominate Asia.[quote]

This pap again! You are truly slipping.

You want the world to form ranks with US policy, Mate. Anything else is illegitimate to you, whereas I feel embittered by the latest US-led response to terrorism in the war on Iraq. Despite our differences, I would prefer to respect your contribution. Your latest tack is without respect, and challenges mine towards you.

On "experience";

Over the course of the last two years or so, I have found my take on Iraq and the war on terrorism vindicated, generally - from the nature of the 'threat' posed by Iraq, to the importance of the battle for hearts and minds in the ME (witness the latest document from the Defense Science board). The course of events in Afghanistan have run islightly better than I had anticipated. I am no military man, but I have a sound enough mind to sort wheat from chaff, usually, and modern technology has brought information to our homes that much faster and in extraordinary volume. It was no coincidence or lucky guess that found my appraisal of Iraq's capability and likely response to war closer to the truth than yours, Mate. Stuff your supercilious, ad hominem drivel.
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Postby ChuckMeyer on 24 Dec 2004, 19:59

Hello.

Just joined the boards--a WX World Politics refugee--and look forward to shedding more light on the Corruption of Empire.
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Guys...

Postby mate on 28 Dec 2004, 15:47

Overall we have an excellent conversation going here. Barry is correct, in a way, that I am becoming more antagonistically direct in criticizing those who issue partisan condemnations of the US war in Iraq and the current US administration. Every time a US soldier and innocent Iraqi dies, I will remind the anti-American crowd of how their specific criticism, all issued under the cover of freedom of speech, works against the side that is actually defending and upholding civilization...while ultimately reinforcing and giving cover to the nihilists that undermine it.

My sentiment is perhaps best expressed in the following quotes from a recent Thomas Friedman article in the NYT:

<i>One was kneeling with his arms behind his back, waiting to be shot in the head. Another was lying on his side. The gunman had either just pumped a bullet into him or was about to. I first saw the picture on the Internet, and I did something I've never done before - I blew it up so it covered my whole screen. I wanted to look at it more closely. You don't often get to see the face of pure evil.

There is much to dislike about this war in Iraq, but there is no denying the stakes. <b>And that picture really framed them: this is a war between some people in the heart of the Arab-Muslim world who - for the first time ever in their region - are trying to organize an election to choose their own leaders and write their own constitution versus all the forces arrayed against them</b>.

Do not be fooled into thinking that the Iraqi gunmen in this picture are really defending their country and have no alternative. The Sunni-Baathist minority that ruled Iraq for so many years has been invited, indeed begged, to join in this election and to share in the design and wealth of post-Saddam Iraq.</i>

Again Barry, I have witnessed you condemn Bush and the neocons in the most extreme terms. I have witnessed you essentially deny the existence of a transnational Islamic terrorist and extremist threat, only to gradually, very reluctantly, acknowledge it in varying, inconsistent degrees. It is quite clear to me as to where you stand in all of this. It certainly isn't on my side.

And being that you are not on my side, don't be too peturbed when I throw a bit of sarcasm your way. Who cares if I would have joined GIs storming Normandy while you probably would have been protesting the bombings of Dresden and Tokyo.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Anyways, like I said at the other boards, I'll be more fully engaged in these debates after the new year. Enjoy your holidays.

Cheers, Mate
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Postby barry schwarz on 28 Dec 2004, 20:21

Mate wrote:I have witnessed you essentially deny the existence of a transnational Islamic terrorist and extremist threat, only to gradually, very reluctantly, acknowledge it in varying, inconsistent degrees.


Bullshit, amigo. Where have I ever denied the existence of a 'transational Islamic terrorist and extremist threat?'

Unlike yourself, I acknowledge that intelligence on such is not comprehensive, and that it is not a monolithic threat (although it may be becoming so), but an assortment of groups with different objectives, affiliations motivations. You would put Hamas, Sunni militants, Shi'ite militants and al Qaida in the same box. Where is the intellectual rigour, the precision in that? No, the grand plan requires that all Islamic militancy is the same, all equally illegitimate - or, to quote the passage you posted, equally 'evil'.

Neither of us know the support-base, public and governmental, the size, composition, or co-ordination of the multifarious groups known as 'Islamic terrorists'. You seem to know more, but apart from your submission re the Iranian government and Islamic terrorism in Argentina, you expostulate rather than substantiate.

In respose to a document I posted at world Crossing ('Bounding the GWOT' by Jeffrey Record), which pointed out that Islamic terrorism is not uniform by any means, you linked an article by a US military officer whose name began with 'Z', I think. I couldn't access it then. Can you post it again?

Mate wrote:It is quite clear to me as to where you stand in all of this. It certainly isn't on my side.


Our objectives are the same, Mate.

Mate wrote:And being that you are not on my side, don't be too peturbed when I throw a bit of sarcasm your way.


Ok.

Mate wrote:Who cares if I would have joined GIs storming Normandy while you probably would have been protesting the bombings of Dresden and Tokyo.


Well, presumably the Germans and Japanese would have been provided cover and reinforcement from my demonstration.

Mate wrote:Enjoy your holidays.


My good wishes to you, Mate.
Last edited by barry schwarz on 29 Dec 2004, 01:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby barry schwarz on 28 Dec 2004, 22:12

Marines Are From Mars, Iraqis Are From Venus

Major Ben Connable
First Marine Division G-2


'Introduction: Marines find themselves regularly frustrated by the behavior and reactions of the Iraqi people. There are very fundamental cultural differences between Americans and Arabs, but for a variety of reasons these differences are exaggerated between the Marine tribe and the Iraqi tribe. Our fundamental differences lead to fundamental misunderstandings. As we enter a period of ambiguity leading up to the transition, it may be helpful to look at how we deal with our Iraqi counterparts from a fresh perspective. American Marines and Iraqis are hardwired at far ends of a cultural void not by genetics, but by social conditioning.'

http://www.armyocs.com/portal/modules.p ... icle&sid=4

As far as anthropological comparisons go, this article isn't half bad. A useful pocketbook to help understand your enemy/liberatee.
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Postby mate on 29 Dec 2004, 14:09

Where have I ever denied the existence of a 'transational Islamic terrorist and extremist threat?'


The operative word I used is <i>essentially</i>. Indeed, most of your postings are essentially dismissive of the threat. Initially, you argued vociferously that there was no such threat, offering points of distortion about it not being <i>monolithic</i> and that there wasn't significant state support for Islamic terrorism. I offered numerous sources and analysis that put this notion of a monolithic threat in context as well as establishing that states and popular culture in Islamic societies support the extremists in varying, although significant, ways.

Hence, I find it amusing that you respond now with the following:

Neither of us know the support-base, public and governmental, the size, composition, or co-ordination of the multifarious groups known as 'Islamic terrorists'. You seem to know more, but apart from your submission re the Iranian government and Islamic terrorism in Argentina, you expostulate rather than substantiate.


Sorry, but a great deal is known, not least that an entire nation, namely Afghanistan under the Taliban, supported OBL and Al Qaeda to the nth degree. I also discussed in detail how Saddam supported Abu Nidal and Hamas. These are blunt hammer established facts that smash your assertion that I expostulated, rather than substantiated.

Barry, the fact of the matter is that I consistently and in crystal clear bluntness characterized the threat for what it is...namely, a transnational, nihilist group of interests that have enough of a Islamic cultural affinity with which to collaborate in violence against Israel and the West ( especially the US )...noting how they progressively are coalescing...how they receive significant support across their respective societies. In great detail I distinguished my generalities from the particulars that affect individuals caught up in all of this.

In summary, I noted the general threat, prescribed a general strategy to mitigate it, and explained why I support the specific operations executed by my country's administration to pursue this strategy. We can continue to discuss in detail all the particulars...the effectiveness of forcing democracy; the diversity of class, sectarian affinity, and economy across Islamic societies; the negative impact of partisan distortion in waging these operations; the incompetence of the US administration in operational conduct.

You obviously know where I hold your kind of sentiment in my reckoning of things. Again, I disagree with you claiming that we have the same aims. I am not so sure, given how you excoriate the US administration, being so exacting and demanding, to a degree you never seem to apply to the perpetrators of all this strife.

However, I am heartened a bit by this snippet of yours:

and that it is not a monolithic threat (although it may be becoming so),


I am quite confident that eventually you will close ranks with me, that you will gradually, more bluntly, acknowledge the threat and the need for civilized nations to stand together against it. When you arrive to this cathartic, and productive, state of mind, I will forgive your partisan damning of Bush and the neocons...but not forget it...not even when you try to spin it as having been something else, perhaps some expression of valuable criticism that is so important to the machinery and tradition of democracy.

:P :P :P

Cheers, Mate
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Postby Eugene Berkovich on 29 Dec 2004, 15:03

I also discussed in detail how Saddam supported Abu Nidal and Hamas. These are blunt hammer established facts that smash your assertion that I expostulated, rather than substantiated.


Sorry, Mate, but it is simply not true. While Saddam Hussein did acknowledge Abu Nidal, this is waaaay waaaay short of even the minimal requirement for "support".

Saddam's "support" of Hamas consisted mainly of the $25K (some say - $20K) reward to the family of the terrorist. So, it was neither the operational nor even material support of Hamas' aims.

Oh, yeah, almost forgot, Saddam Hussein is often mentioned as a supporter of an anti-Iranian terrorist group. Perhaps so. Only one problem remains - American legislators (most visibly - Congresswoman Illeana Ross-Lehtinen) are trying to have that group's terrorist status revoked....
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Eugene...

Postby mate on 29 Dec 2004, 15:16

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1097521/posts

Saddam Hussein supplied financial support, training and shelter for an array of deadly terrorist organizations right up until the onset of the Iraq war a year ago, including such notorious groups as Hamas, Ansar al-Islam, the Palestinian Liberation Front, the Abu Nidal Organization and the Arab Liberation Front, according to a comprehensive report released by the Hudson Institute.

There are many more such reports that validate the idea that different Islamic interests can and do collaborate to project violence upon Israel and the West in pursuit of extremist goals. Hence, my general point stands, withstanding your contention against on of my specific examples.


Cheers, Mate
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Barry...Another Bit of Substantiation...and Thought...

Postby mate on 30 Dec 2004, 14:37

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6727646/

In another statement on its Web site Thursday, Ansar al-Sunnah and two other militant groups denounced democracy as un-Islamic. The statement said that democracy could lead to passing un-Islamic laws, such as permitting homosexual marriage, if the majority agrees to it.

“Democracy is a Greek word meaning the rule of the people, which means that the people do what they see fit,” the statement said. “This concept is considered apostasy and defies the belief in one God — Muslims’ doctrine.


These nihilist radicals didn't synthesize such sentiment recently. The above literal expression of hate and intolerance only validates what some western observers have long noted about the potency and malevolence of reactionary Islamic interests.

But, like I said, keep slanging and questioning everything and anything done by the US. You're only stoking support for the radicals, helping create a culture where the US is damned for all things under the sun.

Not suprisingly, the US is even catching flak for the recent tsunamis in Asia. How ironic that Muslim nations and cultures cry for greater US aid, considering their damning this nation to the nth degree.

Cheers, Mate
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Re: Eugene...

Postby Eugene Berkovich on 30 Dec 2004, 14:41

mate wrote:http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1097521/posts

Saddam Hussein supplied financial support, training and shelter for an array of deadly terrorist organizations right up until the onset of the Iraq war a year ago, including such notorious groups as Hamas, Ansar al-Islam, the Palestinian Liberation Front, the Abu Nidal Organization and the Arab Liberation Front, according to a comprehensive report released by the Hudson Institute.

There are many more such reports that validate the idea that different Islamic interests can and do collaborate to project violence upon Israel and the West in pursuit of extremist goals. Hence, my general point stands, withstanding your contention against on of my specific examples.


Cheers, Mate


No, Mate, these reports are to have never been substantiated. In fact, other than the assumptions, nothing had ever been shown to be proven.

And your quote still lacks proof. Remember, with the same audacity, reports of Saddam's WMDs were flooding the media. Without the proof, but, yet, with such a degree of certainty that people like you just bought them.

In fact, right now, these reports are on the level with the reports of US presidents regularly consulting with aliens.
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Re: Barry...Another Bit of Substantiation...and Thought...

Postby Eugene Berkovich on 30 Dec 2004, 14:43

mate wrote:Not suprisingly, the US is even catching flak for the recent tsunamis in Asia. How ironic that Muslim nations and cultures cry for greater US aid, considering their damning this nation to the nth degree.

Cheer